A judge will hear oral arguments for the Texas Moment of Silence case on July 20th. Tonight I uploaded the transcripts of the 2003 legislative debates. One of my purposes in having these debates transcribed was to show that this new law is really about mandating organized silent prayer in the public schools.
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169 comments:
Where and at what time is the hearing? Can the public attend?
I saw the article about you on Dallasnews.com. Just wanted to voice my support and let you know how much I appreciate that someone is fighting for secular values in our government sponsored public arenas. I'm also a pretty staunch Libertarian and a former CFB-ISD student. Keep fighting the good fight.
David Wallace Croft,
You are entitled to your belief, that right is assured.
However, to force YOUR will upon the community at large is wrong.
You demand that the overwhelming majority of the public (students/parents/teachers/etc) bend to YOUR way of thinking and the courts waste time permitting you to pursue this.
I, personally, am not a religious person, and have no use for religion, however it is not necessary for me to attempt (in any way, under any circumstance) to sway others to my lack of faith.
Further, to attempt to do so may be considered to be "proselytizing" for a non-faith religion.
You may be guilty of your own charges.
Remember this: the most basic building blocks of a democracy include the reality that "majority rules". You are one (1) voice, perhaps one family of voices, BUT the community at large, outnumbers you (and your lack of belief) dramatically.
Go ahead, be an Atheist, no one else will mind, but don't try to make everyone ELSE become an Atheist.
Wake up, buddy!
Chris A.
Dallas, TX
Mr Croft,
Thank you for your fight for what is right!
Terry
Dallas, Texas
Stalin and Lenin would be proud of your fight to remove God.
People dont understand a democracy
The think majority rules
THEY ARE WRONG.
In a mob, majority rules BUT NOT IN A DEMOCRACY
In a democracy majority rules SO LONG AS THE RIGHTS OF THE MINORITY ARE NOT VIOLATED.
Prayer is as welcome in school as doing math during a sermon would be.
While Stalin and Lenin were in fact Godless they would also like a publicly funded school system.
And not saying prayers in schools doesnt make you godless.
It means you understand there is a time and place for everything
1) This is not a Democracy, it is a republic.
2) No rights are being violated. The Republic tolerates the minority, but does not violate them.
Get a clue and learn some history.
Wow, thanks Dave! Maybe all of DF/W can drop by your self-serving egomaniacal jagoff blog on a daily basis to be told how we can better accommodate you and yours. If I sue you for having the term “Ten Commandments” on your “Look Mommy! Look at me!” webpage, do I get pizza and French Fries too? Yay!!
You’ve received far more attention than you deserve. Your inner attention-whore should be satiated, one would imagine. I personally disagree with prayer in schools also. However, I’m unsure on how to properly equip my children to effectively whine their way to imposing their demands on society as a whole. Perhaps your could tear yourself away from your Egoblog and the DMN reporters long enough to teach a course to the mere mortals and useless eaters on Hissy-Fit Humanism. I fully intend to sue you if you don’t, Dave. After all, I WANT YOU TO. What right do you have, Dave, to infringe on my will?
PS: Is it just me, or was Ayn Rand SMOKING hot in her day?
--Johnny U.
Maybe you should be focusing more on your children and how they can spend their moment of silence instead of worrying about how others spend theirs. If you're that insecure about passing your beliefs on to your kids maybe you need not be involved in everyone elses. Our country is the most liberal in allowing each individual his/her own beliefs. It is A Moment of Silence to quietly think as you please, who are you to stop others from that?
What a complete waste of my day to listen to your story on the 5:00 news story and now to come to your web-site to post this comment.
That being said here I go wasting my time -
A moment of silence to you means we are making our children pray what an assumption. Have you ever participated in a moment of silence as tribute to someone? Does this mean that every year on the anniversary of 9/11 you run your mouth or somehow feel forced to pray during the silence for all the victims? How about a funeral for a fallen solider who gave his or her life for your freedom?
If I raise my children to pray and teach them that during these 60 seconds of the day they should use the time to pray, than so be it. If you on the other hand teach your children something different then why are you concerned that they will pray if they have not been taught to?
Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion - really, that is the way it works in the good ole' USA.
You can believe that everyone is out to get you and make you pray or you could just accept it for what it is........a moment in which our children stop, stand still and absorb life for 60 seconds of the day.
Seriously - you going to sue over 60 seconds of the day, why don't you use your 60 seconds per day and figure out a way to solve world hunger or contribute ideas to any array of worthy causes?
Only a complete ass would seek to interrupt simple, harmless tradition based upon a granular claim of religious association.
What a great life's work, Mr. Croft.
If you have any impact, it will be to strengthen and redefine the word "petty."
You will not be silenced, for your cause is so monumental as to clog up the courts with meaningless drivel.
Ridiculous. You mistake your efforts as having some sort of benefit for the secular 'cause', which they do not.
My cell # is 423-326-7152, so if you come up with a way your goal will help anyone - please let me know.
If you want to help the schools, take on the teacher's unions. Now that's a religion worth abolishing, and it's in control of much more than a minute a day.
It doesn't matter what they teach, as long as they don't stop for a minute to teach nothing. Right, David?
It appears as if you are threatened by the fact that you have not taught your children what TO do, instead of teaching them to complain about what they won't do. Maybe if you are really concerned about the "moment" that the others wish to share, you could do something positive for humanity- find a solution for something, or even read a book- they could become better readers which IS a subject still taught in school. There are many positive ways to spend the moment they are given, and if it is too tricky to find a way to do it, I would be willing to bet the schoo, wouldn't mind them coming a "minute" late- so as to not be in attndance during the "wasted" time- I am betting that if you were given that option, you might not find the effort to do just that- considering if is only a minute. I also wonder why you haven't complained about recess, which is also time spent in school not being educated... I am sure you have read the other comments posted, but I am hoping you did see the one reminding you that imposing YOUR view for others is not really anymore fair than it is for you to be exposed to theirs. Educate your own children in the way you want them to grow and allow others the same courtesy. I saw on your page that you had an issue with the idea of creationism being presented. , and whereas that is fine, what about the people who also don't want the big bang theory presented? In order to accommodate the group at hand, you then have to either not present any ideas, or present all the ones being offered within reason. Science does not and has not supported the big bang theory for a long time, so it isn't as if it is more right simply because it is non religeous. It just means it is non religeous- better to let the kids know what the options are or nothnig at all unless something has been proven to be true (and especially when the one I imagine you rally for has been proven to not be true...)
Good luck in what you would like for your family, but please stop pretending others have to care only about what you want and ignore the desires of the group as a whole- it isn't very nice.
I am also interested in where and when the hearing will take place. It would be good for some of the community to show up...
"There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."
James Madison, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 16, 1788
(and, once the public catches on to what previously seemed "petty"...)
"Once policy is institutionalized within a government, it is extraordinarily difficult to terminate."
Thomas R. Dye, Ph.D., Emeritus Professor of Political Science at Florida State University
You go, David! Thank you for having the guts to stand up to the dishonest Texas legislature's attempt to do an end-run around the Constitution with their "carefully worded" legislation. And for you and your family putting up with the examples of "Christian love" exemplified by some of the comments posted here. We all owe you a huge debt of gratitude!
You go for it! I mean why stop with just ending "the moment of silence". Fight for it all. Fight to make sure the numbers "666" are never displayed anywhere in any public school, even in an arithmatic problem, because it references Satan and Satan plays a role in the religious faith. Fight to have any child who wears a "WWJD" braclet removed from campus's around the country for fear another non-christian student might become offended. These are all worthy causes just like fighting the "moment of silence".
The moment of silence is not just about prayer. It's about reflecting on the events that have happened or are going to happen for the day, week or year. Taking a moment to gather your thoughts before a big test or presentation. Just make sure that before you speak at the hearing you don't take a moment or pause at any point in time. I'd hate for someone to confuse that with a moment of silence or worse "a moment of prayer".
Mr. Croft, just because you do not believe in something does not mean it ceases to exist. Your denial of God's existence has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that He does, in fact, exist. You can't see germs, but they exist. You can't see dreams, but they do occur. You can't see God, but He is very real. He loves you more than you despise Him. I find it interesting that athiests, as you describe yourself to be, live in such a curious paradox. For on some level, you must first acknowledge that something does exist in order to so vehemently argue that it does not. I can only imagine that you are an educated man with great ambition and drive or you would not have kept up this fight for so long. I wonder what victories you might accomplish if you were to devote the same energy to medical research or charity work, rather than fight for something you ultimately have zero control over. I find it remarkably arrogant of you to think that you alone can control the silent thought processes of millions of school children. Even if you succeed in this ridiculous endeavor of silencing silence, you will never remove prayer from school. In fact, no one can control how or when children talk to their Heavenly Father. You may remove the formal setting for silent prayer, but what 's next? Are you then going to insist that teachers maintain a constant chatter in the classroom to avoid an accidental silence when a child might have an opportunity to sneak in a prayer? Should we abolish lunchtime in schools for fear that a child might pray before they eat? If this sounds absurd to you, I agree. In the same manner, your mission to abolish 60 seconds of silence when a child MIGHT pray is equally as absurd. I pity you and I hope that one day you might come to know Christ before you find out too late that He is in fact quite real.
Your children will be the ones who suffer. If you think that your actions have no effect on the way they are treated in school and in the community then you are WRONG. I hope its worth it when they grow up to HATE you and HATE everything you have done. You have a nasty heart to enjoy fighting a school. Why don't you go kick an elderly person why your at it? It is people like you who make this world as disgusting as it is. Congrats!
I have to agree with adam, Johnny, believe and jason, john seems to be on your side but pokes at the "Christian love" as if it is evil what was being said here. It is ok John God loves you anyways as well as you Mr Croft.
What really gets me wondering is why you want to take to court and fight 60 seconds of time to think. I have seen your resume and its accomplishments you claim so I know you are very educated but to take a fight to our courts and waste time over 60 seconds of free thought really tells us all your soul and drive is very hateful indeed. How do you know that the legislature allowing 60 seconds of thought means it will be religious in every childs thoughts?
You must see yourself as a god to be so intent on taking away 60 seconds of free willed thought and it is scary to think about what you teach your children and what they will do against free will when they grow up.
I know China does not allow any religion at all so why are you not living there? Your thoughts on how the world should be fits well in a comunistic climate so please think about moving your family there soon!!
It is so disheartining that people like you and the civil rights folks take so much court time and energy to go against what our God fearing forefathers wrote our constitution on./ That energy could do so much good focused on more important issues!! Oh yea but doing a good deed is too much like being a person who believes a higher being exist. Yea, our universe just magically appeared out of thin air and no entity is responsible for creating it.....
Too bad all that stuff and education on your resume is not put to a more useful purpose!!
China awaits you!!
Man, you certainly got the cows mooing in here. Don't let 'em get you down and best of luck with the suit.
I honestly don't understand why someone would go to this extent to try and alienate and hurt other people. I suppose you must be a very unhappy man to not have anything better to do with your time. Don't you have a job or a book to read to your children? I really feel awful for your children who you have made a spectacle and put in the middle of this.
The celebration of Christmas at all has religious background. I assume you don't put up a tree at your house and your kids don't get presents.
[snicker] As if the Christians invented the idea of a celebration at the winter solstice, or the gicing of gifts, or of putting up an evergreen tree. Let me ask you: do you really need the government to tell you when to pray? Or is it just that you need the government to make sure everybody else shuts up while you do it? And have you read Matthew 6:5,6?
Thanks for the lawsuit. It was needed. You don't have a constitutional leg to stand on. The good news is you don't have a chance and if for some reason it makes it to the Supreme Court, great, it will put closure on this inane issue for good.
Hopefully after you lose you will be required to repay all the governments legal expenses.
I guess it is mostly sad by how much energy people like you put into trying to stop Christianity. It must be because you feel threatened that you might become swayed or something. Anyway ask me in about 100 years if it was all worth it.......especially when you hear the words "I knew you not" that is what will be really sad.
When I knock therefor you shall know it was me.
Jim, the Supreme Court has already ruled that a moment of silence in public school is unconstitutional. See Wallace v. Jaffree, 1985.
It disgust me that you use your children to get attention for yourself. I highly doubt your children came home and complained about 60 seconds of not having to do anything at school. Why don't you try teaching your children to THINK for that moment of silence. I asked my child (8 yrs old), who prays nightly, what she does during the moment of silence in school and she said "I think about what I'm going to do on the playground and who I'm going to play with." I'm sure this is what most young children do until their idiot parents turn silence into something evil. Get a grip.
stacy
Is anyone forcing your kids to pray during the moment of silence? No. Nobodys rights are being violated. Seriously get a life. I hope you lose your court battle, and have to repay the schools for their court costs. I
I see someone on here thinks they are a Libertarian. A true Libertarian would understand that a "moment of silence" can be used in any way one wants to use it. That is true liberty.
Hi David,
I read about the case. Not sure I understand where the law implies any mandatory praying. Lines 11-15 appear to be meat of it;
"Following the pledges, students would remain standing for a minute of silence during which they
may reflect, pray, meditate or engage in any other silent activity that is not likely to interfere with or distract another student."
Prayer is listed, however it certainly does not read any kind of requirement to pray.
Thanks
C. Roesner
S this the scumbag suing the Texas government, making it so kids can't sing Christmas songs in school and fighting moments of silence? The same, intrusive, everyone must believe what they want but silently, Mr. Croft? What a shock to see you hail from an academic background, home of the militaristic atheists.
Seems to me like your actions, and this war to remove God and freedom from people, are more like those of a cornered RELIGION than someone opposing them. Your litigious, reptile like brethren are finally starting to anger the common person. One would hope this free for all assault on freedom, religion and the ever threating Christmas Carol (shudder) will soon be met with fierce opposition.
Crawl under a rock you piece of trash.
I pray for your soul because your time is coming soon!
David Wallace Croft
What a 'roid. People like you ought to be required to deposit an amount equivalent to the cost of a team of lawyers for the U.S. for 5 years. Just to ensure your frivolous suit doesn't increase the national debt, as they all have in the past. I'm sure you complain about that too now, don't you. One good thing, it appears you at least stayed within your breed when you mated. Hopefully your children weren't infected with your disease, but then time will only tell. It never ceases to amaze me how supposedly well educated people can be such idiots.......
Believe said: Maybe you should be focusing more on your children and how they can spend their moment of silence instead of worrying about how others spend theirs.
That about sums it up. You like getting in on other peoples business. You are probably a lousy neighbor...
I just think it is so funny how these atheists keep pushing their agenda on every one else. I am so sick of these people FORCING their views and spending OUR hard earned tax dollars on this garbage. If I want to sit for a moment of SILENCE that is my right as a United States Citizen. Who are you to tell me that I shouldn't do that? You, your husband and the Newdows of this country need to get a life and STOP pushing YOUR agenda on the rest of us.
Like someone else stated, if you don't like the FREE society, then move to China or N. Korea, I am sure they will set you up real fine with a communist setting.
To think that you use YOUR children to further your own selfish agenda is just despicable.
I think everyone else who thinks you are trying to take away the freedoms and liberties of everyone else should SUE you and see how YOU like everyone else stomping on your rights. Remember, what goes around comes around!
I've read a lot of comments that indicate that you are "well educated." I think you are a well educated, WEAK MINDED person. You were obviously easily influenced by the liberal agenda of the schools you attended and the biased, left-wing media. This suit is more pathetic than the judge who sued for 54 million over a lost pair of pants. Find something better to do with your time; if you hate the policies that the majority of U.S. citizens agree with, then GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!
I'm not impressed with your schooling or your eagerness to waste our tax dollars. While you may be "well educated," it certainly doesn't mean that you are an intelligent person. If you were that intelligent, then you wouldn't waste your time on such a pointless and frivolous suit. You are a selfish, thoughtless person. How does it negatively impact your children to have them observe a moment of silence?
I'm greatful The good Lord brought you to my attention. You will be added to my nightly rosary.
John asked, "do you really need the government to tell you when to pray?". No, we don't need the government to tell us when to pray, but I guess we need to government to protect our right to pray from psycho's like you guys. If someone wants to pray during a moment of silence, then that is their right, just like it is your right to take that time to think of new ways to screw up our country and your kids.
So these kids have to be quiet for 60 seconds, then I guess we need to stop all silence when kids are taking tests and thinking about an answer.
Get a life and quit waisting everyones time and money with this stupid #$%*ing suit.
Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
It's freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion. Congress can't create a state run church, but it can't stop the people from saying I think saying "all hail the spaghetti lord" is a good idea.
It's called tolerance, and nowhere does the Constitution say you have a right to not be offended. Sorry...coping is a good value.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
Seems like the second part of this phrase is conveniently left out of most atheists discussions...OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF.
Please stop asking the government to prohibit my free exercise of religion.
Karl Weisheit
Frisco, TX
Heather,
The Wallace v. Jaffree case was a case involving silent prayer and was also under the Berger court.
This is not a case regarding silent prayer and my reference the Supreme Court ruling against it is because as opposed to the Berger court of judicial activist we have a court with a constructionist majority.
Don't you Godless heathens have anything better to do with your time than to try and deny others the opportunity to PRAY or reflect on any topic of their choice during a moment of silence. If your children don't want to PRAY during this "moment of silence", then maybe they can reflect on what losers their parents are.
Democracy liberates. Which democracy - Representative democracy, Liberal democracy, Direct democracy, Socialist democracy, Anarchist democracy, Tribal democracy or Consensus democracy?
It's funny how people feel religeous ONLY at certain occaisions and certain places. I have listed them:
1.weddings
2.funerals
3.Sunday mornings*
4.High School football games
*(some feel that Sunday mornings are not enough, so they go 4 or 5 more times each week...)
You know, if you sit down and think about this, you are acting just like a Christian extremist acts. I happen to be a God fearing individual, but I am far from perfect. See, you want to FORCE your ideas on everyone else in this community, and thats just wrong my friend. You see, I can handle just about anything except poeple like you. "Moment of Silence" does not mean you have to pray, it means you take a moment of silence and do what you wish with it. Whether it be pray, think about what game you want to play after school, or whatever. I dont like being ugly, but you are ignorant. You are also a very arrogant individual, who in my opinion just needs a good ole country butt whippin. Bet you never had one of those have you? See, thats the way we really do things around here, you are nothing more than a bully, hiding behind your "crook" of a lawyer and the ACLU. Well my friend, let me tell you a secret, bullies deserve those good ole country ass whippins, and there aint nothing your lawyer or the ACLU can do about that partner, because they are chicken sh*ts and they know they would be next. I hope you feel good about yourself buddy, your actions probably cause your children a bunch of undue grief, and that makes you a sorry individual. And for all you smart asses on here, I aint trying to spread no Christian love, Im just telling you the way it is.
I echo the sentiments of Texascrapgal. Maybe you should be spending your time on a more worthy cause...like...hmm...say...keeping evil filthy pedophiles off our streets and away from our children?? 60 seconds of silence is hardly an issue worth fighting over, seriously. Get over your narcissism before it destroys everyone around you.
If a moment of silence is so offensive that you fear for your children in that mere 60 seconds, I have two words for you, HOME SCHOOL!
Mr Croft you are a prime example of how a person who doesn't believe in God will believe ANYTHING. No doubt you also believe global warming exists and that Cuba has superior healthcare
I agree with gamma and planoguy; If you don't agree with the way we believe, or the way our public schools are run; Move to China or Home School your poor children. May GOD have mercy on your soul and SAVE your children. And I apologize, did you say your name is David? Where I come from that is a name straight out of the Christian Holy Bible.
Ah, the usual "christian" love from the majority -- do things OUR way, or leave.
Sorry, atheists like me & Mr. Croft won't allow our rights to be ridden roughshod like that.
Hey Mr. Westley!
I saw the comment you left, and I think you are mistaking the facts! I wasn't sure if you realized it or not, but it seems to be Mr. Croft that is pressing a lawsuit against "silence".... Not sure what part f that was the Christian group saying do things our way or leave- it seems as if it is Mr. Croft saying "I don't care what teh majority thinks, do things my way or I will sue!" So, I am sure you are simply mstaking the facts at hand and probably thought it was some "Christian" suing over the moment of silence, or maybe suing becuase the white paint used to separate lanes on the road was offensive, but it should be a little clearer now:-)
As far as teh "Christian love" that you are talking about, I haven't really seen any comments that were left by people proclaiming to be believers that were unkind, but I think there is some confusion there as well. I think what you are thinking of is not the "love" but "walk all over me". If you have noticed, there is no other group being restricted in quite the same way as the Christians are in general. Kids are allowed to pick their own school clothing unless it has a Christian message on it (though it would be ok for it to have a Buddha on it...hrm...), kids are not taught Abstinence education in schools- instead "hey, do what you want, just wear a condom" (even if they could be saving their life for NON religeous reasons- we have an answer for that too- get your std at 10, and we will vaccinate you, so don't worry... People taking down the 10 commandments (even though the people who founded our country used them as a guidline- and for those who aren't religeous, perhaps it wouldn't be so bad in the society of all the "great" secular folks who don't teach their kids right from wrong and then those children go gunning down others and killing their families- even themselves- and instead of saying "hey, maybe we should have some sort of standard- something very baseline not asking a lot that says things like "don't kill" and "don't steal" we say "it's religeous to say those things". I am not sure about you, but even coming from a family of non believers, it seemed good to us to follow a decent moral standard and found those ideas to work fairly well...
ANYWAY, my6 point is, that the Christians get stepped on a lot and their right to religeous freedom (which includes keeping it to themselves and not trying to push others- really, when was the last time a Christian showed up at your door to "talk"???) and when someone wants to throw a fit because his kids have to "endure" a moment of silence each day in their lives you think people should say "yeah, I think it is good that you take the decision away from the majority and just decide what you want". Do you see what a foolish thing you are saying? Noone is being unkind- they are saying "get real! I am sorry you got hot coffe spilled on your lap in a drive through- but why are you wasting tax payers money and time to get rid of a moment of silence?" Noone is asking or forcing them to pray, they could read or be constructive or THINK and he wants to take away the rights that others would like to enjoy. This IS selfish and unkind on his part. Putting his kids up for public humiliation ISN'T loving. The point that pthers were trying to make in terms of moving to China were in reality telling the truth- if you want to live in the USA, it seems reasonable that you realize that we are to be able to vote on most things (although it doesn't always work that way) and that we are to agree on policies as a group. When the majority thinks something beneficial, one can chose to participate or not. Come late, home school, move somewhere where "they WILL do as I say" (much as a 2 year old not getting their way) do what you want, but it isn't your right to decide for everyone else- that is what they are saying. They are also telling you that the person who is trying to speak for the majoriy is ALSO using THEIR (the people's) money to do it! Can you believe MY tax dollars are going to pay for someone who wants to dictate against SILENCE instead of feeding the hungry or helping the poor or giving care to the sick and elderly, or even repairing bridges that may need it? DO you personally believe it is acceptable that states don't easily have funds for things like bridge repair because they are too busy funding people's frivolous lawsuits? The person who said they thought he should be required to recover the government's money was right- use your OWN time and your OWN money for the purpose that YOU are interested in, and if the group as a whole is interested, we will pool ours with yours to help you out, but if you are found to be unreasonable or frivolous, you should be responsible for repaying the money you took from me so it can be re allocated elsewhere for a real problem.
I am sure you can easily agree that there are other solutions that don't infrindge in the rights of others that he could have come up with to service his own plan (coming a minute late every day seems like a simple enough one...)
ON LAST THING, as this has gone on WAY too long... When people say things like " I must just be bad, or you must not like me" or whatever in a way that is because they want you to say something opposite in return is a manipulative way to behave- trying to manipulate others into feeling bad and thus doing what they want them to do or say. I am sure you can see your comment about "Christian Love" is manipulative as well. You want people to say "no, please think we are nice and be our friend, and sorry for making you think it isn't ok to take away the freedoms others enjoy even though they don't infrindge apon yours..."
I hope you realize manipulation is also not loving and is in fact pretty obnoxious. No one is feeling bad though, it didn't get the response you had hoped for.
Keep up the good work! You are not alone.
Ed Elfrink
Hilliard, Ohio
Keep up the good work David. I support you and these xians are why we shouldn't have a moment of silence or under god. When you make something secular/neutral they realize their xianity isnt being favored and they get nasty.
Typical Christians complaining about their rights being taken away. If you want to pray no one is stopping you. Just don’t expect my kids to follow along when they could actually be learning something in those 60 seconds. Why should they give up THEIR time so YOU can practice YOUR faith? You have a home and many churches to practice your faith. Your children have recess and many other breaks during the day they could practice their faith. Do you really need to make the WHOLE school stop for 60 seconds just so YOU can pray? Talk about unfair! Keep your faith where it belongs, in church or your home!
David this atheist family is behind you 100%!!
Cry me a river............ you athiests, when will you realize you are not the majority? Sit down and shut up.
Mr. Croft, I have a question for you. When your son came home from school crying and wanted to join the Cub Scouts, what did you tell him?
When your children at some point decide they want to exercise their "free rights" as American citizens, and want to participate in something that does not conform to your atheist beliefs, what are you going to tell them? I'm just curious.
swordsandlace, that my son can join but his dad can't be a scout master because they make me sign something that I think is wrong, an oath to a god. Then when he says screw the bigots we'll go to camp quest.
I could understand you not wanting written or prescribed prayers in school. That restricts a student’s expression. However, a moment of silence allows a student’s self-expression without even communicating with another student. This time I think you’ve got too far. The first amendment says government can’t establish a religion, but it also says it can’t restrict it. You’re passing over the line of getting government to restrict religion. If schools were to restrict a student’s religious expression, this in effect establishes a generic atheism/agnosticism/naturalism.
The first amendment restricts government from interfering with a person’s religious beliefs. It doesn’t protect a person from being offended, but protects the person’s expression from the person who’s offended.
Perry Webb – your neighbor
the moment of silence has obvious religious implications, regardless of which religion. it simply waists time that the students could be using to be educated. i hope that you acheive your goal, and i support you as a local texan. the sooner we realize the importance of the separation between church and state, the better! thanks for putting forth the effort!
there is no question, that a school MANDATING a moment of silence has religious connotations. this brave man is simply pointing out the fact that this is an unconstitutional act! give it up people. he is NOT excerting any belief upon your children. he is keeping the religious from excerting ritualistic behavior upon the non-religious. don't get it twisted.
keep up the good work, david. don't get discouraged by the laymen that can't tell the difference between the constitution and leviticus. a mandatory moment of silence is a clear violation of the constitution! if you want to take a moment, then take one that doesn't involve the entire school. recess, lunch, before or after school, as long as it isn't a mandated moment, then sit there and be quiet all you want. it would be better that way, anyway.
it isn't about majority vs. minority, it's about religion vs. the constitution. our founding fathers were well aware of the positive application of a separation between church and state. it is the religious neutrality of the state (i.e. public schools) that is clearly stated in the constitution.
By your definition of obviously religious, isn’t this document also obviously religious?
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—...
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, ...
The Declaration of Independence
We leave in the United States of America, a country that grants us the freedoms no other country does. Science didn't bless us with these freedoms, at least I don't think it did. Can someone point this out to me in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights? From what I understand, our Founding Fathers took their lead from the Creator to establish these rights and freedoms. Mr. Croft therefore, has the freedom (and right) to teach his children a curriculum that is free from the supernatural evils of Christianity within the safety and security of his own home. In this way, he can avoid traumatizing them further and having to put his community through this awful legal battle. Christian parents do it all the time and the success rate is quite high. I think it's time for him to seriously look into it. But the real question is, does he really want to do it? Or is he enjoying antagonizing the community too much to consider it?
swordsandlace, I'm at md457@hotmail.com if you wish to discuss this but here's a reply. Our FF did believe as most were Deists/Unitarian. However, they did create a separation of church and state concept in the Constitution. The Lemon Test is a case that explains you may not assist religion or hinder it. Creating a moment to pray or meditate or sit quietly is what this is about and every honest person knows it. The Creator you mentioned in the D of I is after these words, Nature's god and laws of Nature. If you knew what Deism was in the Enlightment Era, roughly 1776, you'd know god created the universe and that's all god did. These men didn't believe like you do. You took god and made him a story book character in a horribly written book. It's no worse than the Koran. They aren't supernatural evils beyond allegedly drowning the whole world and stuff but supernatural bunk that contradicts reality as every human being alive today can testify to if you understand science. The community had their chance when they failed to call their senator and House of Rep when this bill was introduced like I did. Pay up as I am willing to pay for this legal battle with your tax dollars since you didn't write your elected official even now about this bad idea. You'd be wrong in the success rate. 93% of the national academy of science members are atheist. We do quite nicely when it comes to be educated I'd say and that's because we don't infuse religion with science. He's doing what I tried to do when I called the ACLU, get xians to acknowledge their error and contact their Senator.
I don't see how this interferes with anyone's free exercise. Your children are free to pray, gyrate, genuflect, kneel, prostrate themselves, and do whatever else is required to appease the deity of their choice anytime they want to -- including in school as long as they're not disturbing children who actually go to school to learn. It seems to me that if you want the government to prop up your invisible man in the sky fan club, it should be you who moves (to Iran or Afghanistan or someplace like that). This a secular government with a secular constitution. And pvwebb, the DOI is not the constitution, which is what the government is bound by and what these misguided legislators supposedly swore to uphold.
pvwebb, i will invite you to pay close attention to the labels associated with the deity refered to in this document, by thomas jefferson:
"...the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them...", "...endowed by their Creator...", "...appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world.." (declaration of independence)
none of these names are directly associated with any one religion, and imply an agnostic perspective which could also be considered secular, or religiously neutral. let me remind you that the man who drafted this document has also said...
"in every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.", "religions are all alike-- founded upon fables and mythologies.", "i do not find, in orthodox christianity, on redeeming feature.", "christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.", "the christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. the christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. if one wishes to know more of this raging, three-headed, beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. they are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." (all thomas jefferson, U.S. president, author, architect, educator, and diplomat)
the minute you begin to interpret documents subjectively, you lose sight of their purpose. i suggest you read the declaration in an objective manner, while taking in consideration the perspective that jefferson had.
i don't know where you were going with this, but i doubt that it has anything to do with the issue being argued. a moment of silence, being mandated by the public school, is a clear violation of the constitution. period.
TXatheist THERE IS nothing IN THE CONSTATUTION ABOUT
" SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE."
Infact that was a private letter from Jefferson To B Franklin. That over the years has turned to the battle cry of the "Atheist" .
god or anyone else, please email me and not clog up this blog, thanks. md457@hotmail.com Anyway god I would like to know if you find the word prayer, god, jesus, christ, religion or bible in the Constitution? The fact the Thomas Jefferson elaborates to that extent about the meaning of the Constitution/Bill of Rights is the best reason to think I we understand that it meant separation of church and state. The letter was to the Danbury Baptists.
I will salute Mr. Croft on his achievement of his two primary goals:
1.Bringing attention to himself that his academic and professional achievements apparently cannot.
-and-
2.Cleverly making his issue appear to revolve around separation of church and state as opposed to the real issue of Constitutional rights to free expression.
Wait, did I say “cleverly”. I meant “inanely”. I sometimes get those two mixed up.
As sure sign of the impending collapse of empires is the presentation of the ramblings of deviant subcultures as representative of a society as a whole. I’m inclined to crash one of your Humanist/Objectivist/Atheist shindig meetings down at the local Denny’s. I’m sure the corner booth by the crapper would accommodate the three of us nicely. In case I’m running late because of the gainful employment I actually have (that won’t preclude me from membership, will it?), do me a solid and order me the Moon Over My Hammys, would ya’?
Here’s the issue at hand. I’ll do the world a favor and strip it of Mr. Croft’s penchant for lofty titling…
(Opti-Humanist, Dave? I will not rest until you admit you made that crap up. I swear to God/Allah/Buddha/Krishna/Vishnu/Odin I will not rest…)
The REAL issue is:
“For sixty continuous seconds per school day, the Croft kids are being forced to NOT TALK!! Bwaaaaa Haaaaa Haaaaa Haaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!”
There it is. That’s all there is to it. They can’t talk. There’s the “Grand Conspiracy.” They CAN’T TALK.
For a MINUTE.
For ONE FREAKIN’ MINUTE.
You’ve sold me Dave. Clearly the Silent-ologists have infiltrated the greater Carrollton metro area with their insidious agenda. First they came for the silent ones, Dave. And I said nothing. Because I was silent.
“For I Am Become Silence, Destroyer of Recess!!!!”
Hey, what about test-taking time, Dave? Aren’t they being subjugated to the will of The Great Silent God by not being allowed to talk? Aren’t they COMPELLED to silence during that time? WON’T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?!?
No one is making your kids pray, Dave. And no amount of semantic sleight of hand will change that. And I pity the poor reader who can’t comprehend that. By your own admission, your Ego is your religion, Dave. And if the Carrollton ISD allows it to be imposed on their students, they deserve the legal action that will follow.
But I’ll be quiet now.
If the government sanctioned "moment of silence" is not simply code for government sanctioned "moment of prayer" then why all the hate mail from the Christians?
If Christians are upset because taking the moment of silence out of school robs the children of a chance for state sanctioned prayer time then I guess Mr. Croft just proved his point.
Either way, it's hard to understand the vitriol over, as one irate poster called it "ONE FREAKIN’ MINUTE."
Agreed. It's only one minute, so why the fuss over taking it away? If it isn't really about putting the government's stamp of approval on prayer, then why is it so important to keep? The kids can't find a minute of their own time during the day to pray?
After all it is only... "ONE FREAKIN' MINUTE".
Actually, J, since you referenced my post…where did I identify myself as Christian? Unless you drew the inference from my invocation of God/Allah/Buddha/Krishna/Vishnu/Odin, which in my defense, was simply the practice of an ancient and sadly forgotten art known as “Humor”. Don’t infringe on my funny, J, for satire doth be my religion. Kinda by default, I couldn’t get a membership in the Optihumanist club. I tweren’t smurt enuff…
Again, I’ll reiterate my point that since no one is compelled to pray for the one freakin’ minute, this entire debate is not at all about religion. I realize you’d love to make it so, otherwise you would have to engage in debate on the real issue, and your positions are indefensible on that playing field.
This debate is about a movement so fringe and marginalized that it barely warrants discussion imposing its agenda and DOGMA (Mr. Croft freely identifies Humanism and Atheism as his religion) through media whoreishness (Note to self…Trademark that term) and litigiousness. It is about the backlash against school districts and their pathetic fear and kowtowing to fringe lunacy. It’s about pathetic cries for attention and ego gratification under the guise of legitimate issue debate. But thank (Insert Choice of Deity or Lack Thereof Here) my hard earned tax dollars will be spent fattening the lawyers at the trough of this stupidity, ‘cause I’d hate to see that money go towards actual academic endeavors.
But mostly, it’s about common sense. An oxymoronic term, granted, in the vein of “Jumbo Shrimp” or “Optihumanism”. You see, J, in the simplest terms…and the most convenient definitions…you see us as a brain, an athlete, a basket case…
Ahhhhh, sorry J. I sometimes have ‘Breakfast Club’ flashbacks. Where was I? Oh yeah…STAY OUTTA MY BOOZE!!!!
And lighten up. Just try it. For say…sixty seconds or so. Your government commands you!!
Hey!
I am really confused again!
I am wondering why when it served his purpose, Mr. Crot was able to write that the DOI was different from the constitution, and that the two are totally different, not only that, but that the Constitution is the one giving the rules inwhich we were to govern ourselves, BUT when it come up that the consititution says nothing about the separation of church and state, suddenly a note written to someone has some sort of relevance even though it wasn't even an official document of ANY real sort? Not only that, he goes on to say that it helps clarify part of the DOI, and therefore his argument makes sense?
I am just confused, because my husband will sometimes change the rules of the game we are playing to meet the situation at hand, so I find it easier if we all agree on which documents are included and which are not, instead of letting them mean something for one, but not for another.
TXAtheist has asked that this blog not be clogged up anymore. I'm guessing unless you have something of support to give for Mr. Croft?
txathiest, I responded on your personal email. Wanted to know if you had a chance to read it yet or not.
The moment of silence should be a moment of positive reflections on one's goals for our students. If that means involving God, it should be done silently. The Carrollton teacher was wrong to enforce her beliefs on the moment of silence when she said it was prayer time, we know we are not supposed to pray in school, this is not new. I think we should be able to smoke in theaters, but I know we can't anymore. All fanaticism should be set aside and a Moment of Silence should be Called a Moment of Positive Reflection. I think this is a better solution.
:A judge will hear oral arguments for the Texas Moment of Silence case on July 20th.
So how did it go Dave?
I am all ears.
And the occasional eye to boot. . .
our kids are dying from drug and alcohol abuse and all kinds of violence and the best thing you can find to "fight against" is one minute of silence?
I applaud you, David.
Anyone who doesn't see the religious agenda here is either blind, ignorant or being willfully dishonest.
Is there not enough governmental entanglement with religion in being mandated at school to say both Pledges to the US and TX flag, putting words into the mouths of children, regardless of their own family's beliefs, proclaiming them to be "under God"?
People who want their children exposed to religion in school should send them to a religious school. Public schools are government entities and by law required to be religiously-neutral (secular). Our schools are for learning skills to help children live in THIS life; homes and churches are the only appropriate place for gaining skills to help them in the "afterlife."
If I'm offended, it's at Americans' unconscionable level of ignorance about their own country and Constitution, as the posts on this blog and elsewhere all too clearly demonstrate.
Thomas Jefferson used the following terms as a Deist:
"...the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them...", "...endowed by their Creator...", "...appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world.." (declaration of independence)
But, many who signed the Declaration of Independence weren't Deist, and he used those terms to accommodate them also.
Moment of silence is an attempt to accommodate the religious beliefs of all the students.
PVwebb,
You are right historically but there were no atheists back in TJ's day. Today, there is 16% of the country that is not religious. A moment of silence is unnecessary to atheists since we don't want to waste school time with events that aren't educational in nature. And the founding document, the Constitution makes no mention of god.
The original text from the D of I.
We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independant, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these ends, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed;
Its genius that our Texas Legislature inserted "One State under God" and tickles me pink when folks such as yourself come unglued (although that is not a Christian attitude).
The fact is, our nation, and this State was formed Under God and I really wish we could revert to the days when we could publicly acknowledge that whether it is by having prayer in school or what ever. I am sorry if it offends you, but I am looking at the big picture. I might recommend California (lol).
In all seriousness, I will pray for you and your family that you receive the Comforter and awaken to the Truth.
God Bless you and your Family.
Its genius that our Texas Legislature inserted "One State under God" and tickles me pink when folks such as yourself come unglued (although that is not a Christian attitude).
The fact is, our nation, and this State was formed Under God and I really wish we could revert to the days when we could publicly acknowledge that whether it is by having prayer in school or what ever. I am sorry if it offends you, but I am looking at the big picture. I might recommend California (lol).
In all seriousness, I will pray for you and your family that you receive the Comforter and awaken to the Truth.
God Bless you and your Family.
I think life was simpler for you david when you could take your ball and go home when things didn't go your way. And now you think your all grown and since the ball in this game doesn't belong to you it's time to sue. Here is the reality of human life. You and I are just small little men in a world that we have very little control over. I am going to help you where maybe you didn't listen and learn or wasn't taught by your parents. YOU DON'T GET EVERYTHING YOU WANT! It is not reality to believe that you should. I would encourage you for once in your life to consider others instead of yourself. Or use your efforts in a manner that might better your community. I know what its like to believe differently and only with truth and reason can you change the way another person believes. I don't think you are going to hell. I do believe the moment will come when you will see God and you will believe. Because God brings evidence that you can't ignore. Also, my children know how to say a prayer in their heart. You can take their 60 seconds, but their hearts belong to Jesus. Like it or not my prayers are for you. I also pray that whatever you believe that others would see you as one of Gods' children that He loves and values and will only demonstrate Gods love toward you on this earth.
I have a competitive nature that hopes you lose. However, if you do win it changes reality in no way. My child will still pray if he or she chooses and so might yours. Because belief is not a ball you can take home it doesn't belong to you until it does. And it will because we love you man!
Tim Smith
Tim Smith, I'm glad the people that helped shape this country didn't have your attitude! Would you have said the same thing to Thomas Jefferson, Martin Luther King, and the people in the Women's suffrage movement?
I wasn't living in the time of Martin Luther King Jr. but i hope that my attitude would be one of absolute support. I would support and encourage anyone to stand and fight for justice. Martin Luther King Jr. gave his life standing for Love and Tolerance for all people. This however is not that battle. David stands to remove another persons rights from them. I must point out that an incredible amount of effort and resources has gone into fighting against something he does not believe. Not for something he does. Which is opposite MLKjr. I would also like to point out that I have yet to file suit against a school system for having my child take pics with A fat guy in a red suit that believe it or not I never could figure out how to reconcile the chimney or all the kids getting presents in one night.
You know Santa whom I don't believe is real. Truth Love and Reason change everything. I am sorry If I have a bad attitude.
Tim Smith
tsmith, justice includes standing up for what you know is nonsense. By knowing prayer is wasted time and school time is to be used to educate kids and not accomodate religious bunk you are standing up for actual knowledge.
What you call bunk is the light life and breath of this wonderfully free country. You can live in it and enjoy the freedom or fight against the freedom of others. Those others by the way are the majority still in this country. Also, last time I checked WE THE PEOPLE still applies here. However, there are countries in the world that with the price of an airline ticket you can move there. China, government thinks just like you. Learn the language you could run for office. I would like for your to research the Human Rights issues of all the countries with the Humanist lie you stand behind. Oh yea and Katrinas first responder who landed with the most food and water for thousands of displaced people were Baptists. Not FEMA not the we aren't falling for that bunk atheist organization. So you think it's bunk-others have found out that it is LIFE. Oh yes and to clarify something so you don't think I am beating any particular orgs. drum I am not a Baptist by faith just pointing out fact. And as far as Science goes when a group of scientist still can't decide whether an egg is good or bad for me to eat, cure cancer or stop a hurricane I will not allow them to try and determine for all people whether God exists or not. I also have another idea. You know how our poor kids are fed evolution (talk about make believe bunk) and how that has caused christian schools to pop up all over the U.S.? You all could start you up some atheist private schools and teach... well what difference does it make? I have chose to degrade the nature of this commentary simply because I find your ideals rather grand and terribly humorous in the scheme of things. LOL
I refuse to comment further on this pile of fish guts. I would like to refer all people reading this to Johnnys comments. He has several and any comments I have made fail to meet the standard that he has a set. He nails it down to what this is really really about. Read Johnny and laugh like there is no tommorow because he is off the chart funny and so so right. Read it TXatheist and laugh because if you can't laugh at yourselves who else can you laugh at? Also laughter is good for the soul just like Jesus.
tsmith, and the Constitution still protects the minority from the majority with civil law and not biblical bunk. You could move to Iran where you will submit to god as required by law and actually follow theocratic law, I'm sure you'd be happy. A study just done in Texas showed 4% of Texas public schools were performing poorly but 16% of private(religious) were also. You want to argue evolution? What I won't do is let scientific unknowns be claimed as justifying ID scientifically. You have to validate creationism with verfiable data. Good luck:)
Amazing you just named a place that hates Christians as much or more than you hate us. No I think I will just stay here and clog your blog with bunk. Hey guess what I am going to spend the next 60 seconds in silence. Silentoligist Johnny vs. The Evil EGOMANIACAL OPTIHUMANIST. I said truth and reason change everything. So not true it appears that laughter works best. Let me coin a partial phrase from Ross Perot. You People are funny. OPTIBUNK holer rollers. You think science is the answer. Science is made up of 90% disproved no proved no disproved no proved theory. Please pause while I pray for a moment. Now take another 60 I will wait for you to get over yourselves, call it ego intervention. Now I am going to church where I will scientifically research the advantages no disadvantages no advantages... of the 25 minute sermon compared to the 45 minute bible study. I am certain my findings will published on this blog. baaaahaaaaaaaabaaahaaaaa! Sorry Johnny it appears laughter is contagious Do you think Opti-I-manists are allowed to laugh?
tsmith, are you ok?
Irrational ranting is my attempt to make a point in a sarcastic manner. I am constantly hearing scientific data doen't support religious views. Scientific data does not support evolution either. I count Darwin and yourselves in with the many other people I might not agree with. You can't prove Evolution anymore than I can call down lightning on you for disagreeing with me. The fact is you live in a country full of Xianist as you call us. We won't sue you into praying if you don't try to sue us into not. Live and let live in other words. If I need 60 seconds to pray in silence I encourage you to spend 60 seconds laughing at me and my low browed belief. I mean come on what could be funnier that. Me believing my ancestors were monkeys. We are just people doing the best we can with the hand we are dealt. Have a nice day.
Show me a recent scientific finding that doesn't prove evolution is a fact. We didn't come from monkeys by the way. We shared a common ancestor.
David I really respect what you are doing, standing up for what you "believe" in. But really why are you doing this. According to your belief you will be dead and rotting within about fifty years. There is no point it is all in vain if you are doing it for nothing. I have purpose in life beacause Jesus Christ died on the cross for me and for you and rose again. So that we may live forever with him if we chose to accept him. Fight for something true and eternal! I will be praying for you, your family, and all your friends who believe in what ever it is you "believe" in.
In Christ's perfect love-
AnneKirby
anne, I can't speak for David but that nonsense is why we are speaking out. YOu are not going to live forever. YOu should have learned that. It's not a belief that i have. It's a fact that everyone that died is decomposing. We are fighting to keep America from being even more deceived. You are not going to live with jesus after you die, the bible is a story book and nothing more. That is what we fight against, deception.
you fight against deception? show me ONE single FACT that can prove the bible wrong or even prove I will not live forever with Jesus... I obviously do not mean phissically I mean my soul...
Are we here in this world for nothing?? I do not think so, please study more about the bible and you will find that it is totally true and science is actually proving it.
tx atheist i was reading one of your previous comments on the site and you said that the bible is horribly written that is an idiotic statment the bible even from a secular standpoint is one of the finest works of literature in history!!!! think before you talk bud
Anne you can't reason with someone that hates you. These sue happy individuals are nothing more than litigant terrorists. They hate God more than they believe in evolution. Otherwise why not just allow us to wallow in our so called idiocy? Science proves the amazing miracle of creation. The incredible balance in this entire universe that is required didn't happen by accident. The tides, poles, days, years, seasons, moon, planet, sun all working like a giant clock year after year for billions of years as evolutionists will agree. All an accident? Our problem christian and non christian alike we have no comprehension of intelligence and power of that type. As to imagine that a Creator caused all of this. Through whatever mechanism he chose to use i have no argument. Now here is the kicker. We don't have to fight over belief or non belief. The Bible states "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that he is THE LORD" In every recorded or should I say all scientific (data collected)publications regarding a man in the presence of God in all his Glory nonbelief wasn't an occurence. We all suffer from some form of disbelief. And belief comes through discovery agreed. We came to believe through a witness statement that was passed down for a few thousand years. Through a microscope can be seen a whole other book of life. A whole other witness statement (bible) they just have not yet discovered who was the author. Keep up your Faith and Hope and remember even the Heavens declare his Glory and we bear witness to his existence even when others will not.
In the Joshua story the sun stood still....that is impossible to have happened. Our earth would have smashed into it because of gravitational pull. Next....
There is no such thing as a soul. Show me the soul on an anatomy chart. You can't because soul is nothing but a religious idea. It's no more real than happiness or sadness, just an emotion.
Who thinks the bible is a great piece of literature? Not most secularists I know. I did think, that's why I said the bible is a piece of junk with regards to a lack of scholarly work. I don't hate anyone anne or tsmith. I disagree with you and state why.
thats very interesting you mention the sun stood still story. On discovery the other day they spoke of that story and a corresponding story of the same period where the darkness stood still. And spoke of an asteroid or large meteor that passed in close proximity of the earth. In theory caused the earths rotation to be altered. I wouldn't state it as fact but theories aren't factual we can lump it in with the rest of the Theories. There is another story about a great flood that covered the earth. Fossils are found all the time hundreds of feet above sea level that corroberate that story as well. Our Freedom to exercise our faith is guranteed. Your freedom to not exercise any faith is also guranteed. You will not take our Freedom. If the Courts continue to infringe on our rights of freedom of relegion, speech and expression this Judicial system will be set for an overhaul. I refuse to lose my Freedom over to learned men who have forgotten the face of their Fathers. This country is full of patriots and christians that will not stand by quietly while Freedom is stripped from them.
The Bible, Koran, Torah, etc. will never stand up to the level of a secular scholarly work. Man defeats Bible, Man defeats religion, therefore Man defeats God and never has to be accountable.
"Wow swordsandlace68! You finally said something worthy of posting on this page!"
Does this mean I get to play in your sandbox at recess? Oh goody!
That's not what the bible says. It doesn't say an eclipse. Stop trying to side step the scientific error in the bible. There is no science saying the world was covered in water roughly 6000 years ago when Noah was to have lived. Fossils are found up high because the earth is extremely old and platectonics pushes old layers up. I am not attempting to take your freedom. You can pray, go to church or start a church any time you want. What this is about is having the government endorse a religious viewpoint. We are nation/state under god to you but not all Americans. It's like saying we are a white nation because most citizens are white. I don't think I have forgotten the face of the FF. I think they purposely said to keep church and state separate and that's all I am trying to do. I am not trying to change the pledge to one nation under no gods. I see that as wrong too. As a vet I didn't stand by either. I am accountable without god. I understand ethics without being a theist.
tx athiest, how did the world come to be???
Yeah....
I'd also still like an answer to this, and this is the 3rd time I've tried to get an answer, both through my own blog and now here.
What exactly happened in the evolutionary process to separate us (humans) from other common animals to give us the ability to compose an opera, write a screenplay or paint something like The Mona Lisa? How did that happen and why are we different? Yes we are different, because we can do it, and they can't. That's the truth. If you hand a dog a paintbrush he ain't gonna paint a Monet, that's a fact. There has to be a logical and scientific explanation, as there seems to be for everything else you guys want to throw at us.
I believe what you guys call the Christian "bunk" side of everything, that God created us and that we are separated from animals, that we do not share a common ancestor. We each have unique gifts that we are given. I'm not going to shed that belief, no matter how many names you want to call me or how much you want to ridicule me on this blog. Go ahead and do it.
I don't want your answer so the light will be "turned on" for me and I will suddenly throw out everything I believe in. I just want somebody to own up and answer that question. Please.
o cool, so are you a Christian?
You betcha.
awesome,me too how has God been working in you or through you lately
60 seconds of silence is not state sponsored prayer. Its one minute of not talking. One minute taken from spit ball making,letter writing, giggling etc. If it is taken first thing in the morning it would help transition kids and focus them for learning. Our Freedom of expression is protected. Any Judge or person denying that is in violation of my civil rights. Nothing you can say will change that fact. Barn, school, sidewalk, mall, anywhere in these United States. So long as my actions are peaceful and not disruptive. 60 seconds of silence is not disruptive. Just irritating to a few not believing individuals. You being a vet doesn't add validity to your argument if you don't understand what it means to be free. 60 seconds of silence is 60 seconds of free thought. Yet you would stand against it. And the FFs would have harsher words for you than I do. The Ten Commandments in the Supreme Court. In God We Trust on the Money. The Spirit of God residing in the Hearts of Patriots. You are living in The UNITED STATES of AMERICA and were not leaving.
anne, the unique ability that humans have came from our ability to transfer information to the next generation. When cavemen drew pictures of buffalos on the wall with tribesman carrying spears they were teaching. The human brain has evolved to a point over tens of thousands of years to learn language. Generation after generation have used the prior information passed down through the media(tv/books/magazines) to educate the next generation and they expand on what they know. Richard Dawkins, atheist, and Francis Collins, Christian, will both tell you that our brain has grown tremendously over millions of years from earlier upright hominids. That enlarged brain allowed for more critical thinking, memory storage and problem resolution skills. Where did all this come from? The energy in the singularity which is smaller than a grain of sand had basic chemicals within it. It's similar to our earth in that we have a hot molten core that is constantly reacting and we know this because hot gases flow into our ocean floors all the way from the earth's core. That is the same thing but on a larger scale. p.s. We are 99% the same as chimps and are classified as animals just like them. Some apes have actually been taught sign language and they are passing it on to the next generation of apes. Who knows, maybe in 10,000 years we will be signing with apes.
tsmith, no one is saying you or a school kid can't pray all you want. Barn, schools, sidewalk, mall, home or church is all fine. You have that civil right and no one is challenging it. Your wanting in school is disruptive. School is a place to learn, not pray. Why not have 8 hours of prayer? In Pakistan they study the Koran 4 hours a day in school. The school bell was the signal to switch from spitball making and goofing off to time to pay attention and learn. You don't know what it means to be free if we give your religion a time to be appreciated. Do that on your own free time, not on school time. 60 seconds of nothing is wasted time. The founding fathers said no entanglement of religion so they've got my back on this issue. IN god we trust was added 50 years ago from the red scare of china, not our ff. Just like the Pledge was changed in the McArthy era out of fear. The spirit of the Constitution resides in the heart of Patriots like me and David Croft for wanting to retain the separation of church and state. I am living in the secular country of the USA and will use our judicial system to protect Constitutional violations.
Just in case anyone is wondering, annekirby1, annekirby2 and swordsandlace are not the same person.
Anne, I would like to invite you to my blog sometime and check it out.
The answer I am looking for as to how humans and animals are different still has not been answered. Cavemen could make drawings, great! Why couldn't a mammoth do it then? Or a sabertooth tiger? Didn't they live in the same time period? If we all came from the same ancestor, I would think we could all (meaning humans and animals) do those same things, if we're no different. There had to have been a split somewhere in the process. Where is it? If there's not a split then how do you explain it?
We do sign with apes now. There's evidence that we can. But this doesn't mean that an ape can drive a car or teach an algebra class. Humans are far more advanced. That has to mean something.
opposable thumb. Just because they don't write doesn't mean they don't have language. Parrots can talk, does that count? The question was answered, you don't want to accept that we are advanced in writing but we are weaker than orangutans, worse vision than an eagle, have poorer night vision than a cat, can't smell like a dog or shark and can't climb like monkeys. They are superior in that way.
Okay.
Wow but they can't split an atom, drive a car, plant crops, come up with the strangest ideas on how they came into existence. That is what seperates us. Our design seperates us. All animals would have evolved to be as advanced as us. A Sharks mouth would change so that he could tell us how we taste while it is eating us. Diet Pepsi would evolve so that it really tastes like regular pepsi. Design set us apart nothing you say about evolution has scientific value. It is Theory and not to be taught in school. Real scientific data doesn't support it. And we are still talking about 60 seconds of silence. Its a chance for all atheist to consider themselve superior in their ability to know all the big answers about their existence.
That is not the way evolution works. I hate to break it to you but we human animals are not the top tier of evolution. Those ideas only happened in the last 100 years, driving, atom theory, and farming is only a few hundred years old. It’s also not true for tribesman in Africa. They have no idea of how to drive or split an atom. What you are expecting is that a shark, which is far superior to us in water if the world ever did become flooded, is supposed to evolve to humans. Because we have technology it doesn’t make us a higher species, only technologically advanced. What you are talking about is obtaining a skill. Humans are not born with the knowledge to know how to plant, split atoms or drive. It is a skill and I am sure you can’t split an atom but you and I are both humans. Are you less evolved because you can’t? No, you don’t have that skill. That goes back to my point of transferred knowledge from generation to generation. Design is what mechanical items are, we are natural beings. No one designs a tree to grow. You put a seed in the ground and if you don’t have sunlight, nutrient rich soil and water it won’t grow. If you don’t have 23 healthy female chromosomes and 23 healthy male chromosomes you can’t continue evolution by making a baby. I asked a few posts ago to show me one recent finding that disproves evolution and you can’t for good reason, evolution is as solid a theory as gravity. Please visit www.talkorigins.com for any questions on evolution. All we are talking about is 3 hours a school year wasted and to give a nod for theists to be allowed to pray in that time. It’s backdoor prayer and we all know it. Sir, bro, dude, fellow Texan, I am sorry you think I am superior to you in any way. I am not and do not think I am.
So no moment of silence for the 9/11 victims I take it? Wait...I guess we don't really need that.
Where did this first atom come from?? where is the missing link??..just one fossil that has not been proven to be fully man or fully monkey?? you cant say because there has never been one thing found that has been proven to be something like that. why are we even on this earth??? evolution just does not have answers for all the big the questions
Are we talking modern farming with plows and such? Or farming in general as being only a few hundred years old? Because I thought there was farming in the area of what is now Jericho about 10,000 years ago. Could be wrong there, but it doesn't matter. Doesn't really apply to this discussion anyway.
If humans aren't at the top tier, then who is? I guess nobody is? Is gravity a theory?
Ok, I didn’t do it this year but I did put a hand made sign on my car the last few years on Sept. 11 saying “We won’t forget, 9/11/01”. I got several thumbs up on my commute to and from work and from coworkers. You can have a moment of silence, that is a personal freedom. I was referring to industrialized farming because we were talking about technology that the human animal has invented in the last couple hundred years. No one is at the top tier, that’s my point. If every human died tomorrow do you think the other billion species would notice? Your dog might but that’s a domesticated pet. Gravity is a theory but you also hear it called a law. Gravity happens every time you hold something out and drop it. However, as a theory we can’t say it will be here tomorrow for certain.
We have been able to use the telescopes and radio active background information to know the big bang/singularity is ~15 billion years old. We don’t know beyond that, no one knows beyond that. Lucy is a 3 million year old hominid. It is not human and not monkey. That is a link to our humanity though not homo sapien. We are here because we are the right distance from the sun, have a protective atmosphere, have an average temperature on earth of 0 to 100 degrees, have plenty of water, and enough plant and non-human animals to live off of as do they. The earth is very slowly getting farther from the sun so one day life won’t be here on earth unless we develop the technology to allow it. I can’t say that evolution will answer those questions for you. There is a difference between science explaining how it happened and you searching for the ultimate meaning in life, for believers it’s god.
So does that mean then, that the delusional Christian brains evolved differently from the more intellegent atheist brains? FOr instance, if I don't agree with Bishop Spong's teachings, does that make me less evolved as a human? I'm guessing that since I don't agree with Dawkins' teachings that definitely makes me less evolved, and therefore, less intelligent, therefore not the same as everyone else. Is this correct?
No, we are equally evolved homo sapiens. I'd suggest you look up congitive dissonance...please
Where did the tree seed come from you just throw on the ground and it grows? You don't know the big bang occurred 15 million years ago or that your remains are 3 million years old. You think they are. Dinosaurs are extinct because there is no evolution. There is only some levels of adaptation. The earth might be getting further from the sun this thousand years and the next be getting closer. You don't know anymore about a million years ago than you know about whats going to happen this weekend. And if you truly believe in evolution as the earth gets slowly further from the sun we would adapt or evolve into a creature capable of surviving. Why is it that every ocean creature serves a specific purpose? Everything in existence serves some purpose in the survival of life as a whole. That didn't occur by accident. Accidents mostly take things apart and break things. Builders creators inventors etc. put things together. you say your a vet. Then you know big bangs break things apart and dont put things together. 60 seconds of silence and one nation under God. Welcome to Texas USA.
An earlier tree, and prior to that plant life and prior to that the collection of matter that created the earth and prior to that the dust from the big bang. We do know the rate that our galaxy is expanding. It’s the same constant rate for earth. Pluto has another rate and it remains constant. We can verify it for Venus and Saturn and even Uranus They will all confirm our expanding galaxy. We measure the half life of calcium and we can verify the age of bones because they contain calcium. We can compare that to the strata the fossil is found in also. Double confirmation on just that one specimen. Dinasours are extinct because of the asteroid that slammed into the Yucatan of Mexico, near Cancun. Adaptation is evolution. Saying it’s adaptation doesn’t doesn’t change the results, it’s just a more preferred word for you it appears. If the earth was getting closer then we’d be the only planet but the confirmed rates of all the planets calculations show it’s getting larger and expanding. You are referring to the steady-state theory and it’s not supported by tests or facts. I know this weekend the Texas Longhorns are going to be Central Florida We would have to figure out how not to freeze to death if our earth gets too far from the sun. Name a ocean creature that has a purpose. It occurred on one planet in our galaxy and it won’t last forever just as humans weren’t around 200,000 years ago. 99% of all species that lived are extinct now. Evolution happens and the strong/adaptable survive. I am a vet, honorably discharged. The big bang broke apart and made our planets, it happens. You remove the oxygen from H2O and you’ve 2 parts hydrogen. 60 seconds wasted and one secular nation under the Constitution. Welcome to the USA .
ok so in this big bang theory where do the suspect these astriods or planets or whatever banged together were created? where did they come from?
anne, we don't know where the singularity/big bang came from. We are using our technology to go back 15 billion years ago and that's pretty amazing. That's also a very long time :)
At least we can agree that Texas can beat CF. And using some humor-if in your home you had everything it takes to make a cake and your house explodes because of a gas leak. Is it remotely possible that what would be left is a perfectly baked cake complete with cute little flowers and people on top? If 86% of the people of this country believe there is God. Then for all practical purpose delusioned or not He exists. People find hope and forgiveness in a very harsh world in Faith. You call God an imaginary friend Jesus in the book of bunk stated blessed is he who believes who has not seen. True Christian belief delusioned or not loves their neighbor, feeds the hungry, and forgives. I know you have stated you don't need God to do those things. However, numbers don't lie. Overwhelmingly Christians are the ones doing these things across the Globe. If I am wrong in my belief then one day I will go to sleep and feed the worms no worries. Or we all get to see Jesus. And I would like for you if at all possible to refer to me as a Zionist. I like that better it gets me thinking of a gleaming city on a hill.
tsmith, I don't want to argue with you about religion here. I'm at md457@hotmail.com and that is not an invitation to argue but to hear me out of why I am supporting this court case by Croft. Yes, it's possible the cake would be fine, slim chance, but possible. Also, 80% of the US can believe in god but that doesn't mean you can violate the Constitution. We can't bring slavery back because 51% want it. It's not majority rule on Constitutional issues. You can vote in bonds or new schools to be built but not Constitutional issues. What you are arguing is the fallacy called argument ad populum. Just because 90% of the people in heaven's gate thought they were going to a planet when they committed suicide doesn't make them right. Actually studies show xians are not more giving. A recent study showed 82% of xian volunteer time is at their own church. You know who is the biggest US donor, Bill Gates, an atheist. Do you have a sense of humor? :) What if the muslims are right and you will be bowing to Allah in heaven?
Bill Gate is one. His contribution might be the single largest contribution to what I don't know. It doesn't scratch the surface of the giving of one denominations cooperative program in one state. Many people do work within the church because thats where many go that have a need. This is a Christian Nation with law that is based on the TEN COMMANDMENTS. They are on display in the Supreme Court of the United States. How does your stand and your fight better your country? How does it better the World? Have you given anything to World Vision to help raise fatherless children? I know World Vision is a christian org. but the Atheists surely have organizations like World Vision. I would encourage you to start one if there isn't one. Or my Aunts church ladies get together everyday. They bake bread and make soup. They deliver it to the elderly in the community and anyone that will call and say they need food. The church 8 miles from my house has a food pantry and clothing donation. Anyone needing food or clothing without the means to purchase may go there and get food. So yes many people spend lots of time at the church. Because that is where the community work is done and distributed. Tell someone that was hungry and just got a bag of groceries that God doesn't exist when the person giving is doing so because their imaginary friend Jesus said it is true relegion that is acceptable to our father in heaven. Also, you can tell me you don't believe in God and all I will do is say I hope you have a change of heart. Tell a muslim your an american, or christian or atheist anything not muslim and you might lose you melon. And thats not funny.
Tx. athiest Are you a good person?
At my church, we donate every week to the St Mary of Egypt Food Kitchen in Kansas City that feeds a lot of hungry people. The women donate a lot of time to prepare food for shut-ins in the community, as well as visit them and provide fellowship. The Salvation Army does a lot for people too, that's a Christian organization. Catholic Charities is a huge contributor to the poor and needy. What about nuns?
Missions that go to other countries and help build homes for families that don't have them?
I disagree as far as giving. Your opinion that Christians give more is not based on facts but I am not arguing Christians are not good volunteers, they can be. Christian nation? Really? Thou shall not murder/kill and thou shall not steal were around way before Judaism/Christianity. How does my fight help? What you fail to want to realize is once you allow religion to be infused into our public domain you will get different religions doing it. Islam is on the rise. When it dominates Dallas will you be ok with prayer time breaks during school time so Muslim kids can get out their prayer rugs and pray to the “holy land” Mecca? Why not? It’s only 1 minute? I hope you see that. I would be happy to tell you about my volunteering if you accept I am not bragging but letting you know because you brought it up. I have done Hands on Housing a dozen times and have been crew leader several times. I have done Graffiti Busters where we paint inner city houses that have been “tagged”/ spray painted. I mentor 3 inner city kids from Houston and have been for 10 years. That doesn’t include what I do for my in-laws/relatives and friends. I almost never give to Christian organizations. There is almost always a secular group that does good work I can donate to like Big Brothers/Big Sisters. I must confess I have only heard of one homeless atheist and I tried to find him once. Thomas Van orden was the guy who sued to have the 10 C monument removed at the Austin Capitol, he was a homeless non-practicing attorney. He never said why he was homeless so I can’t speculate. I’ll tell a homeless person that I agree god is a myth next time a I see a begger at a street corner with a sign that says he’s an atheist. All I ever see it god bless you on their cardboard sign. We absolutely agree on muslims. Do you think I am any less argumentative on islam than xianity? No way. I will always write muhamMAD because he was MAD as in crazy. I respect muslims but not islam or the Koran.
anne, are you familiar with ray comfort/kirk cameron and the way they ask people if they are a good person? They have a 10,000 prize if you can honestly claim you are a good person. however, you won't get paid as the bible says we all fall short in the glory of god so as a sinner you lose out. Am I a good person? Not according to ray comfort/kirk cameron.
It appears there is a message that implies that christians are not good when it comes to volunteering. I am not saying they do not care nor volunteer.
yes I am familiar with them I just went to their confrence. What do you think about what they have to say?
I think Kirk is making a last ditch effort to save his career(like John Tesh) and Ray moved from Australia to America because fundamentalism is so predominant. I have Ray's book "god doesn't believe in atheists" but couldn't get through it because of the misguided perception of atheists
Well I am sorry to hear he offended you in that book may I suggest that you read a book by Marc Cahill it is called one heartbeat away it is great!
anne, would you be willing to read The God Delusion or Losing Faith in Faith?
Is history allowed to be taught in school? How about George Washington establishing a national day of prayer. James Madison in 1789 appointing Chaplains to open every congressional session with prayer and services held at the capital. Still happening to this day. The separation of church and state was meant that the federal govt wouldnt mandate any particular denomination as a national relegion. That it would be left up to the state level. For example 1778 South Carolina named the protestant church their state relegion. Our constitution includes an oathe to God to uphold the constitution. The very document some very ignorant people have hijacked stating cause for sep. of church and state. A letter to the Danbury Baptists just doesnt carry the name dropping power of the constitution. History, Moses is in the House Chamber. Moses holding the ten commandments in Congress, Dept of Justice, National Archives,Supreme Court South Courtroom Chamber, East pediment outside of the building, oak doors of the chamber, and on the frame of court rooms bronze gate. Not much separation in relegion and government? In the capital building on stained glass Psalms 16:1 preserve me o God for in the do I put my trust. The Pilgrims holding a Bible opened to a page that reads The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We are a Christian Nation. The Koran and Darwin are not carved into our Capitals Stone. Neutrality is a lie and Wall of Seperation is a hijacked metaphor that is set to be overturned in the very court that miss-ruled to begin with.
yes,sure is you will read one heart beat away then just pray and ask God if he is real give you some sort of a sign it will not hurt anything if you dont believe therer truely is a God. Just give me the authors of those books and I will read them if you do what I suggested
the book in its entirety!
tsmith, yes history is fine. Also teach that every time a guy like Pat Henry tried to get christianity or jesus or god inserted into an official US document it was overwhelmingly rejected. Teach the official document, The Treaty of Tripoli, which was signed by President Adams and it notes "the US is not in any sense founded on the xian religion." Teach that too. The separation of church and state is obvious when it has the word state right in it. When Pat Henry changed Virginia to a christian state while Jefferson was out of the country it was quickly returned to a secular state. I hope you aren't talking about the Oath the President states upon taking office. It is a myth that Washington and the next 10 Presidents said "so help me god" at the end. It's not in the official transcript and was added much later by some other President and that's how it started. The very same history xian revisionists have tried to change to please their followers because their followers are ignorant of US history. Our FF were men of the Englightenment Era and saw how horrible the church was in England so they created a secular USA on purpose. The Danbury letter was just elaboration on the Freedom of Religion clause. You also won't find jesus, christ, god, bible or christianity in the Constitution because we are a secular nation and always have been. Art work in a building is not the same weight as a US document. Were there always christians? yes, but their art work doesn't have any weight on US law. We are a pluralistic secular nation and always have been. The separation of church and state will always protect the religious minorities from the majority and you should appreciate that. Some day Texas will be mostly muslim and if you continue to think it's a religious country, there is little difference between islam and xianity, then you will get islamic laws on the books too. You'd better push for separation of church and state if you don't want that.
anne, Losing Faith in Faith is by Dan Barker.
ok well I will read that if you will read One heart beat away and ask God to show you he is real if He is and have an open mind
The Congressional Oath is recited by all in unison and finished with So Help Me God. The Armed Forces Enlisted Oath is recited by all and ends So Help Me God. The Sixth Article doesn't envoke God. However, I believe the X amendment leaves it to the State to determine for itself on religion. And I completely agree with you that Islam is a very dangerous entity and growing. It however will not worry about the constitution. They will destroy our most innocent and vulnerable in the most terrible manner possible. Do not compare me to them. When that day comes you will need all 86% of us. Islam lives only by fear and the sword. And Historically we can agree that some very misguided individuals have used Christianity to do attrocious things. The truest form of Islam is to convert the Infidel or put them to the sword. The truest form of Christianity is To care for Orphans And Widows and to Love one another. Tx atheist good people do good things and you seem like a good knowledgable person. I commend you on your community giving. I am thankful for every human being out fighting the good fight to make life better for others. Christian type behavior I wish more christians displayed. I was raised in church until I left did the Army Reserve thing and college thing. Then I worked as a bartender for Ten Years. I had what some would call a spiritual awakening while slinging whiskey at this sweet Irish Pub where I worked. Could have ignored it but a gentleman sitting across from me having a pint of Harp stated "That was an ephiphany if I have ever seen one". I argue 60 seconds of silence mainly out of principle. In all honesty I don't want theology being taught to my children at school. I also don't want my children taught sexual orientation or offered birth control. Please somebody sue over that. Parents have dropped the ball teaching their kids core values. Selfless behavior is becoming a rarer commodity. And its completly depressing the violence that kids display toward their peers and parents. Somebody tell me the cause of this any input appreciated.
Not to mention the increased violence in the workplace and the dangers our kids face every day just by standing at the bus stop.
ok, anne and keep me updated on your progress through the book. md457@hotmail.com
The X amendment does allow states to set laws not in violation of federal law. You can't establish a religion at a state level when that violates the federal law of establishing a religion. Quite the opposite, you will need us because we atheists are the ones telling you now how bad mixing religion with government is. We have our nut job xians in America just like they have theirs except here we no longer encourage killing but it wasn't so in the 1950's when xians killed and tortured blacks in the name of xianity. A couple hundred years ago xians killed women they thought were witches in Salem, Massachusetts. Since the civil rights era life has gotten better for many minorities and females. I agree xianity is no better than Islam but in America we have civil law and that works much better than a theocracy like Iran/Pakistan or as the xian church was corrupt back in England just 200 years ago. Islam is about submitting to Allah and doing good things to but they have extremists controlled by bad imams. They abuse the koran and take it literal. We have our share that do that too in controlling people. The truest form of secular humanism is to care for people but never place false ideas in someones head like heaven. I consider that completely dishonest and that is not a value to me. My good actions are not being like a christian, when a xian is good it's good but I will never be like a xian, they can imitate me in being good, a good person is a good person...atheist or theist. We will have to disagree. Do you know why Texas is first in teenage pregnancy? Because sex ed is taboo. It's ok to have sex just do it safely and the best method to be safe is abstinence. 88% of kids that sign abstinence pledges fail. You have to accept there are gay people and pretending they don't exist is bigotry. Pretending kids are going to have sex is the problem also. Telling them not to do it is sweeping the problem under the rug. Kids have sex and we need to step up to the plate, not pretend it's not happening.
One of my peeves is saying the youth are corrupt and ill-mannered. No, our baby boomers are. They want medicaid for everything, they complain about kids not appreciating the dollar and they watch the corruption on tv. Walmart locks employees in and refuses to pay overtime and they see it. Enron screws people out of their 401k retirement and the kids see it. This baby boomer generation is all about me and expects the kids to pay the national debt and they see it. The global warming concerns are ignored by F-350 sales and Hummers and the kids see it. This older generation is only concerned about themselves and that's where the kids learn to be selfish as I see it.
If it's any consolation I was beat up several times as a kid at the bus stop and I grew up in a town of 6000 people. My buddy laughs at the story to this day. Two older girls encouraged their younger brother to beat me up and he did.
Not wanting sexual orientation taught to my children doesn't make me a bigot. Parents need to be responsible for teaching their kids some things. I mentioned I spent 10 years working as a bartender. I knew many people of every walk and orientation. The unfortunate fact is that of one particular orientation four have passed out of this life from HIV. Not one of them over 43 years of age. I know heteros have a habit of living dangerously and sometimes paying a price but not like that. Four doesn't sound like a lot but I knew these people personally and I know the lifestyle is dangerous. Our children need to be taught personal responsibility, accountability, and consequences of irresponsibility. Since we can't agree on religion maybe we can agree on that. Parents need to start being Parents because their kids already have a buddy.
Uh, yeah it does make you a bigot. If I said I don't want my kid exposed or around xians because they are bad people would that not be bigoted? I am all for accountability and responsibility. Those are the values I was taught.
Any human that doesn't use protection in a non-monogomous relationship is living dangerously. I am ultimately responsible for teaching my kid. Take a step back for a minute and think about this....how many times am I going to have to sit my kid down and explain how god/jesus didn't create the world after he hears that from other kids and adults?
tsmith, you said there are some things a parent should teach. How do you think I feel about Texas schools offering a bible course? (I know it's elective but go with me here)
Tx. Athiest why are you so against any thing having to do with the Bible. I think it might be that you are scared of truth and that you would not want to admit that some one is holier than you. Considering the Bible is the most acucarate of any history book maybe you need to look into it further. No offense
Bigot-A person of strong conviction or prejudice, especially in matters of religion, race, or politics, who is intolerant of those who differ with him. Bigotry- The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance. Txatheist do i need to point a finger or do you get it. You are intolerant of christians, christiantity and the bible. Therefore you are a bigot. David Wallace Croft is a bigot. If my child takes anatomy and are taught reproduction that is spectacular. Reproduction is a natural, biological process. Sexual orientation does not comply with natural biological process and should not be taught. 60 seconds of silence should be tolerated. It is not religion specific. If you and david are that intolerant then you and he are bigoted
anne, that's a mighty strong statement...the bible is the most accurate history book. First, it's not truth to me. It may be to you. Actually, my concern is teaching it as truth/factual. That is why I have no problem with you teaching to your kids or believing it but I could show you things in the bible that are far from true. Do you really think a serpent talked to Adam and Eve? Are there people more moral(holier) than me? Sure, I'm not perfect and have no problem admitting you and tsmith may be more moral than me. I don't know you so we can't say. I've looked into the bible, read it twice cover to cover and have listened to it on audio several times. I was a true xian 10 years ago. I changed my mind. How's the book reading coming?
tsmith, I don't know if I've said it here but I do respect John Spong. A retired bishop. However, I'm not against xians. If a xian appreciate the separation of church and state I am fine with them being who they are and that includes being a xian even though I am not a xian. however, when they say that homosexuals should not be identified in an educational setting as a group of people just like blacks, whites, hispanics, transexuals or hermaphrodites because they are unnatural that's bigotry. They are gay and that is nothing to hide or be ashamed of. I really wish we wouldn't have gotten side tracked on gays. Your kid has 60 seconds of silence and it's tolerated. It is the 60 seconds before class starts, once the bell rings it is time to start educating kids not cater to religion in any way.
Tx athiest, please tel me some of these things that are unfactual aout the Bible.? Something in fact cannot be true to on and not true to another it conrtidicts the Aristitillian laws of logic. So saying it is true to me can not be a true statment. A statment is true or false. Not to be rude but it offends me that you would say you used to be a Christian, or Christ follower and now are not. That cannot be. Oh I have not gotten the book yet but I will keep you posted on that.
There isn't 60 seconds for silence but there is a place and time allowed to push someones sexual preferences down my childs throat. The day the Public School my children attend drinks that Koolaid you and David are pushing is the day I pay and send them to private school. You and David are bigots to the core. Intolerant of anything or anyone christian. I am not renewing my subscription to this blog and might now check out the Kirby blog. So you nice folks work out your biggoted little agenda. Just know this. You are fighting a battle a human being just can't win. By the way did you know the Sun is 400000 times bigger than the moon? Did you know that it is also 400000 times closer to the earth than to the sun? Did you know that is why the moon completely blocks out the sun in a total eclipse. Amazing considering it was all a big accident.
anne, see that's my point. You are offended that I was a xian and now am not? I know you don't mean that as an attack but I'm talking about the idea that you can't accept that is not possible or to your liking. You expect me to read a book by Cahill and keep my mind open but you are already tiffed at the idea I was a xian and now am an atheist. Would you be tiffed if I became a xian again? I'm going to say no and that's so bizarre. It's ok to be a xian or become one but not abandon following christ..... Think about how that comes across, please. Tell me one vet or biologists that can confirm he/she is aware of a serpent talking as in the story of Genesis. You can't say it was supernatural because that doesn't make it a fact, just based on faith and I can't argue that you actually believe that happened because I know you believe the bible is true. I have a copy of Losing Faith in Faith so when you get started just tell me what page you are on, please.
Dang it tsmith... I really don't want to argue about gays. I want to stay on topic. I'm not pushing anything. I am saying gays are people and just stated that two people of the same sex who are in love are called ga., I'm not asking for sex ed to have a slide show on what gays do in their bedroom. You have the right to send your kid to private school. I just told you I appreciate John Spong, I also appreciate Barry Lynn, another xian. The big bang is not an accident. Exploding and collapsing solar systems/stars is a known space activity. Ours just happens to have a planet the right distance from the sun with an atmosphere that protects us from that sun. I'm not trying to win, I'm trying to get you to see atheists are not bad guys. If you knew me you'd think I was ok(even though we disagree on things)
I found some other books by Dan Barker on his website. I was curious so I checked him out. For kids, he's got Just Pretend: A freethought book for children, Maybe Yes, Maybe No, a Guide for Young Skeptics, and Maybe Right, Maybe Wrong, A Guide for Young Thinkers. Amazon.com also has a huge age appropriate book list on secular humanism for kids so that they too, can come to question God. Isn't that great?
Is that a loaded question? "Isn't that great?"
Nope, just merely making a statement. Isn't it great that there are books out there for young children to read if/when their parents decide it's time for them to read about the non existance of God.
I guess it would be similar to theist parents taking their kid to synagouge for hebrew training or a bar mitzvah/christians sending kids to sunday school. I found a local universal unitarinism church that teaches about 7 or 8 religions and that has programs for kids so I think I'll introduce my son that way.
I might have to check out a local chapter of U'U here because it does look interesting. Just to see what they are all about. :)
I checked out their website. Looks like they have some good things going on. Since I do have an interest in learning about comparitive religions, this would be good for me to explore.
The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
Let me just stress that I don't mean to be angry sounding on this board when I post things. I just know how horrible it is from personal experience to be dumped from one belief system to another, over and over, for years and years, not knowing where my path was. It wasn't, for me, until about 12 years ago that I started seeing the light go on for me. I hate to see anyone's kids go through that because I know how hard it is, and also how hard it is to have someone tell you what you're gonna believe and that's it, black and white, end of story, no ifs ands or buts. You get confused and you're afraid to ask the hard questions. Your parents become the interpreters of everything for you and you aren't given any freedom to ask or make your own choices. That is SO hard.
At one time when I was young I thought maybe I was an agnostic, that there might not be a God. Or if there was, why wasn't He answering my prayers?
But as I said, all that changed for me 12 years ago.
I became "saved" when I was 11 and got baptized but I'm not sure how I feel about automatic salvation anymore that a lot of churches teach, precisely because of the formula someone gives you to just do something and that's it. I know that's what the NT teaches us to do, or at least that's the way many people interpret it, but it's so much more than that. Gathering together in a holy place every week and giving glory and not concentrating on "converting" the world is what I believe Christians need to be doing to cement themselves in their faith first. Just merely living your life as a Christian and setting an example can go milestones to reach people instead of the finger pointing so many of us do. I think that is what is wrong and that's why so many people have gotten so mad at Christians for the way they behave, etc.
I've seen gay ministers that are better Christians than many of the pulpit pounders out there today, just to make a point.
The verse "Go forth and baptize all nations" does not mean "go down to the street corner and hand out tracts and try to convince somebody they are wrong and you are right and they have to accept Jesus right then and there or else."
When the Roman Catholics went to the New World, they converted mostly by force and we all know what happened. It was a mess! When the Orthodox monks went to Alaska, they set up missions and took translated copies of the Bible with them and ministered to the Indians there and accepted their conversions on a voluntary basis. If they didn't want to do so, they weren't forced into it. That is the difference. If I've offended some RC's by saying that I'm sorry. But I've been studying a lot about early Church history and these very things are what has led me to Orthodoxy. Granted there are several denominations within orthodoxy, such as the Coptic, Armenian, Greek, Russian, OCA etc. but it's all the same liturgy, and it's very beautiful.
Not perfect, though, it has its faults just like any organization. But papal infallibility, Immaculate Conception, purgatory, celibate priesthood, (with exception to monks, bishops, etc) are not part of Eastern Orthodoxy.
I also have studied a little on comparitive religions, like cults, Scientology, Mormonism, Voodoo, Santeria, etc. because I like world cultures and to understand world cultures you need to understand their religious teachings, language and customs. Thats why I think UU has got some good things going for them.
1) Good organization
2) Gets kids involved and teaches them about world peoples
3) Teaches tolerance and giving
I could go on.
I'd love to study Comparitive Religions as a formal field and get a PhD in it. Wow, that would be an awesome thing, but I'm not even close to being ready to pursue something like that.
Sorry if I've rambled, but I felt like I needed to get some of this out there so everybody could see where I was coming from on this thing.
I'm not in agreement with banning the minute of silence precisely because of the above. It's not because I want some teacher up there telling my kid to pray (that's wrong) but if we are to be a multicultural and diverse nation then we have to have some tolerance and allow for that in our schools in some way. The moment of silence (I think) does that. Atheist kids should have the right to take their moment and read something from an atheist book if they want to. They could learn something in that one minute that way, that's all I'm saying.
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